This week Scott is joined by “The Holistic Psychologist ”, Dr. Nicole LePera, author of the new book “How To Be The Love You Seek”. They discuss the importance of being emotionally connected to yourself, healing personal traumas, and expressing your emotions authentically to others.
Transcript
Nicole LePera
Nicole: [00:00:00] I think in terms of the way I conceptualize and think about the victim consciousness, um, is it’s really understandable. When we’re living on that kind of blind subconscious autopilot, right, where life truly feels like it’s happening to us, we have no control. In that state of blind autopilot, I think it’s really natural to miss All of the opportunity that we have to empower ourself.
Scott: Today we welcome Nicole LePera to the show. Dr. LePera is a holistic psychologist and founder of the worldwide community of self healer circle members. She is also the author of How to Do the Work, How to Meet Yourself, and most recently, How to Be the Love You Seek. I first discovered Dr. LePera’s work when her Instagram feed Which has over 7 million followers popped up on my screen ever since I’ve been hooked.
Known as, quote, the holistic psychologist, Dr. LePera [00:01:00] offers real talk on how to heal thyself. I’ve been wanting to chat with Dr. LePera on my podcast for a while now, and this conversation did not disappoint. A major theme running through our conversation. is the importance of being emotionally connected with yourself and learning the skills of authentically expressing your emotions to others.
Dr. LePera helps people heal from trauma and connect deeply with others using a variety of approaches, including an embodied somatic approach. Want to know how to be the love you seek? Let’s find out. I bring you Dr. Nicole LePera. Nicole, thank you so much for being on the psychology podcast
Nicole: today. I’m truly honored to be here, Scott.
Thank you for having me.
Scott: I’m honored for you to be here. I’ve been a long time follower of yours on Instagram. I don’t say that to all my guests. You know, what you’ve really built is incredible and your public mental health dissemination is basically unparalleled. So congratulations, first of all, [00:02:00] on what you’ve built for yourself.
Nicole: Well, thank you. And I truly appreciate your support along the way.
Scott: Of course. Of course. Um, at what point did you become the holistic psychologist? You know, like what, was there like a, an origin story, like a, a moment where you like shed your whatever, and you’re like, I am the holistic
Nicole: psychologist now. Um, I think it was probably, uh, more of a many moment journey.
Uh, for me, the transition as I kind of would define it to be happened after I was several years into a private practice, I was living in Philadelphia at the time, um, you know, doing the work that I thought, you know, I was called to and wanted to do, um, trudging along in a committed relationship, living near my family.
And I continued to find myself feeling really. So, I’ve been very much disconnected, really unfulfilled from my own personal life. Very much still struggling with, for me it was a lifetime of anxiety, which really hit a lot of panic in my twenties. So that being [00:03:00] ever present and at that point having, having clocked many hours working with clients who would come into my office week after week and I was feeling professionally really disempowered.
Um, I continue to hear that from even, you know, the most insightful, from the most insightful conversations, awarenesses, um, the clients I was working with kept coming in and reporting more of the same, more of the same symptoms, more of the same struggles, more of the same dysfunctional habits. very much seeing that mirror reflected in my own personal life, at my own attempts at therapy and self awareness and using all of these tools.
Um, I sought to understand. Um, um, a lifelong learner as my dad would for many years joke when I was finding myself in year after year of school. He’s like, I think you just really want to be a learner. And so I, as many of us do, I went online. And I sought to find is there other information out there that I’m missing in terms of clinically working, understanding the human condition, and very thankfully, [00:04:00] I was met with a wealth of information in terms of the physical body.
I think foundationally for me, that was the biggest opening. Um, from everything from gut health to nervous system awareness and how trauma really imprints the way our nervous system functions, um, the power, true power of our subconscious mind and how we have so many of those, you know, neurobiological habits that are just wiring, wired into us and.
I finally started to have a bit of language for why so many people were stuck, no matter kind of what they knew to do differently, they were kind of compelled to repeat the same habits and patterns that were often created and, you know, colored by their childhood experiences. And for me, that was when the very gradual kind of realization in terms of, well, I think I now need to start working holistically, bringing the body into.
conversations with my clients, um, you know, giving tools that are much more of the embodiment piece of [00:05:00] practice, and that’s when I think I kind of shed that final, that final identity of working traditionally and really began to embrace, again, the idea of a holistic psychologist.
Scott: Thanks for that origin story.
I’m from Philadelphia, too. Uh, were you, were you born and raised in
Nicole: Philly? I was. The Northeast.
Scott: Well, I used to visit my grandmother every Sunday in the Northeast near Busselton and Roosevelt. Oh,
Nicole: I was right on, uh, Castor Avenue, right near Common and Oxford Circle.
Scott: Sweet. Mm hmm. That’s so cool. That’s so cool.
Um, so you ended up, where do you
Nicole: live now? Now I live in Scottsdale, Arizona. Okay. Out in the sunshine. I left the Northeast weather again, very much in alignment with how important for me, um, getting outside, nature, sunshine for a more significant part of the year really inspired my move.
Scott: Yeah, me too. I’m in California.
Yeah. Yes, I hear you. So this new book, How to Be the Love You Seek, Break [00:06:00] Cycles, Find Peace and Heal Your Relationships is, um, I saw in one of the posts you wrote that you think this is your best book yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that right?
Nicole: I feel very deeply connected, um, to the work in the book. I share a lot of my own relational journey of healing in this book.
And I think in relationships in general are just such a point of topic, conversation, struggle. They’re the house for many of us, many of our generational dysfunctional cycles. So I would say, yes, um, this for me feels very personally at the top of the list in terms of relevance and. I’m looking forward to being published and, you know, getting out in the collective and seeing kind of the impact that it’ll have there.
Scott: Yeah. I’m sure it’ll have a great impact. You already have a audience that is at rapt attention for anything you say. So they just need to read it. And, uh, I, I loved it. I mean, I really love this book and there’s just so many, uh, mutual areas of interest and, [00:07:00] um, and, uh, little nooks and crannies we can go in, you know, to.
Um, something I thought was interesting that you just said is about, um, going into holistically because you felt perhaps the somatic aspect was missing from a lot of techniques. And obviously the, uh, the, the book, the body keeps the score really brought to prominence the importance of the body. My question is, you know, Do you think it’s ever possible for a pendulum to swing too much in one direction?
Because to me now, when I think holistically, I think we’ve left out the mind. All we talk about is the body. Um, and I’m wondering how, what’s coming up for you when I say this, because I feel like the pendulum with the body keeps the score kind of have has gone a little too much in an extreme direction that we’re not actually being holistic anymore about
Nicole: it.
That’s interesting. I think generally, um, with new awareness, with new information, even in my own healing journey, I think there can be a [00:08:00] pendulum kind of extreme swing and overcompensation though. I think for me, when I think of the just interconnectedness between the mind and the body at, again, in my belief, it’s foundational core.
Um, I can make a case that. In dealing with the body, we are naturally tending to and impacting the mind. And the simplest example of that is, I think, the experience I’ve lived coming from a lifetime of stress and anxiety housed in the body. Right. Not able to feel and until I became aware of how much tension and constriction and emotional trauma I was carrying that was so reflected in my mind, my racing thoughts, my endless worry.
And as I integrated the body into my conversation, naturally through somatic practices and creating a grounding, calming presence, I was. Though it’s indirectly, though I was very much still impacting my mind’s ability to embrace stillness and internal reflection and [00:09:00] actually my ability to empower my mind to be what I think is the greatest gift of our mind, which is the power of intentional creation as opposed to, I think, the deeper recesses of our subconscious, which many of us are, are driven by.
And so I think I just, when I think of mind and body, I even think about it. When I see, and when I saw my own physical manifestation of a hunched over body and self protection of my heart, carrying all of this constriction, specifically for me around my midsection because I was so frozen in that. Um, you know, kind of vagal, dorsal vagal response for so long and that shut down.
And as I heal, right, my body is not only showing a different manifestation, again, my mind is too. Yeah.
Scott: I mean, certainly your book is, um, about how to reconnect with all of you and so much of a, like there’s this thread that runs through so much of it, which is constantly. Kind of checking in with your heart.[00:10:00]
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know how else to put it. You’re just like constantly like, well, hold on. Am I, is this really, you know, coming from a deeper truth here? And then of course the, the, uh, the beautiful epilogue, which we’ll get to, um, where a colleague of yours and a lover of yours, um, you know, spoke their truth.
Um, but I, I think this, this is really profound and, um, it, and it’s, it’s been offered up in different kinds of therapy practices. For instance, DBT, um, they teach wise mind and, uh, I saw a connection between kind of the wise mind practice and with a lot of the threads running through what you talk about. I was wondering, um, do you see a connection there with this idea of being grounded in Yeah, and it can be a little bit confusing, but if you
Nicole: just know this little bit about how this whole process is going, it’s gonna be a lot easier.
And it’s not gonna be like, you know, you’re like, you know, like, I’m not gonna do this It’s just gonna be a lot easier for you. And it’s not like you’re gonna do this thing. I’ve read about through different [00:11:00] traditions and felt like very alluring, attractive, resonating concepts, but there’s always a little part of me that’s like, okay, well, how can I see that, study that?
Where is that, um, essence? Where does it live? And so really coupling that with the incredible science of the heart. Um, I really like to cite, you know, HeartMath Institute, I think is at the forefront of studying the heart and its energetic power. And so for me, Um, giving it a physical location, right? And again, emphasizing again, the foundational importance of if we’re paying attention, endlessly distracted or hyper vigilant to the world around us, or even in our thinking mind, right?
Over analyzing, always assessing, and if we’re not giving any time, attention, and connection to our bodies and specifically our heart, um, that’s again, the location of where I think this. Very beautiful conceptual idea of deeper truths though. They actually can for a lot of us map on to sensations, you know, things that kind of internally we [00:12:00] can tune into when we’re grounded and safe.
I think that’s the biggest caveat there in being present. in our physical body when we’re able to be in that moment of stillness, silence, solitude, when we’re able to tune out or at least unhook our attentional focus from all of the endless distractions of the world around us and give attention to and then more so begin to make choices from the heart as opposed to all of the different conditioning and reasons why we can convince ourselves out of for those of us who have.
Somewhat of a connection to that internal guidance, those inner pings that, Oh, I, I know, maybe what I want to say or what I need to do in this situation though I override it. Because quickly what comes in is all of the conditioning, all the reasons why I learned I shouldn’t, for whatever reason, say, do, feel, or act in that way.
Scott: Inner pings. I love that. That’s good. That’s good. Um, you know, as an HSP, [00:13:00] a highly sensitive person, and I own that aspect of myself, I feel like there’s a lot in your book. to really resonate with and to not have shame over. You know, you can be told a lot as Anisha’s Pea throughout your life that you’re, you know, you’re too sensitive, you know, and, um, but you know, there, there are great individual differences and I personally find it easier to connect with people who are more heart centered and, um, or, or more integrative with their heart and their mind.
But, you know, that’s not everyone. I mean, there are some people. I meet who are so extraordinarily analytical, and I feel like I have no way in. They’re like, just like, they’re, I don’t know how else to describe it. There’s some people I just feel like I’m floating in space when I’m talking to them. I have, I have nothing to connect to.
Do you ever feel that way when you meet some people?
Nicole: Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting to consider. Even for me too. I’m very much identifying as a kind of very high feeling. feeler for the large majority of highly sensitive, [00:14:00] the large majority of the beginning of my life, decades even, because, and something that I would hear very commonly in my childhood was how shy I was, how removed I was.
And now having this language and understanding, I understand that that was a byproduct of not having the safe container, the attunement that I needed to navigate all of those overwhelming, you know, sensitive emotions that I was going through on a, on a daily basis. And then interestingly, as I entered my thirties, I had, when I was in my psychoanalytic training program.
Um, one of the things that we did is we would sit around, all analysts in a room and do, kind of have a free association session, a group session where you would be open to, you know, people kind of telling you, sharing how they experienced you. And I had a really devastating piece of awareness or perspective given to me by a colleague at that time.
She described me as cold and aloof and I was like, Oh my gosh, I’ve never heard myself. It reflected interestingly, [00:15:00] I share the story in my book of my first boyfriend in my high school years. Um, when we broke up, he, he assessed that I was emotionally unavailable again, took me by complete surprise. because in my being, I had all of these feelings, right?
I wasn’t, I was shy in protection. I was aloof and emotionally unavailable, um, all out of protection. So just sharing that piece that as I’ve gotten more now grounded in my own presence, able to be with all of the big emotions that I feel, and then more grounded in how I experience those around me. cause for a long time I was so focused on how other people are experiencing me?
Do they like me? Do they wanna spend time with me? Is there a some silence in the air that I can feel, all from a very distance, though, place, never really sharing anything deep. So now um, to answer your question, I’m very much more able to attune to how I feel in the presence of other different individuals.
And I think those that are Um, more in their bodies, more grounded in their own [00:16:00] presence, just naturally feel, um, a bit safer for me and I’m able to more quickly, you know, kind of connect and even just either if it’s. I feel a little bit safer in the silence that once felt like I had to fill it with that person or more able to share a little bit deeper of a sentiment, whatever it may be.
Um, I do think that I have the same experience of that kind of internal intuition kind of like resonating and being like, Oh, this is kind of someone in their body and able to receive whatever it is that you want to offer.
Scott: Sounds like you’ve been on quite the journey. Of personal growth, you know, there’s, um, it’s such a tricky thing to simultaneously keep your own sense of self, uh, and also, um, you know, enter someone else’s life, you know, and, you know, connect with someone, um, some people in the most extreme cases, like borderline personality disorder, there can be [00:17:00] this kind of no boundaries, you know, like they’re just constantly always scanning to see what they can give others, as opposed to weed from who they actually are, um, regardless of what someone thinks of it, you know, or how they’re going to receive it.
And I just think that is a major theme in your book, because so much of love advice is like, like the, what’s your love language. Crap. I know I shouldn’t say that. Although what’s your love language? Um, area of research, um, they, where they ask others, you know, to change, to meet, you know, your needs, that’s a very common thread in a lot of this relationship based therapy.
Your book really puts a different spin on this. Can you talk a little bit how your book differs from a lot of that? thread running through a lot of that
Nicole: kind of work. A lot of, um, the shift in my work happened actually coming half, after having done many years of, of couples of family work and very much prescribing right to that model.
If we just, you know, have helpful conversations, you know, share insight and [00:18:00] awareness, give people this insight into how you feel most loved and most connected to essentially to simplify it like you’re very beautifully doing, Scott. Um, asking people to understand me and then modify how they are. Very similar to in my individual practice, I was meeting a lot of, of resistance, a lot of inability to actually make headway with those particular tools.
And, and I think many of us, most of us as adults have come and were born into an environment where we’ve. Had to adapt ourself to maintain the safety and the security of whatever version of connection that was present. And for many of us, and 1 of the. Things I hope to impart readers, um, in this book is really calling to awareness and, and possibly question what our definition of relationship is.
Because so many of us define love and connection based on this idea that I have to somehow [00:19:00]be. And now in adulthood, when it’s, whether it’s my romantic partner, my family member, my friend who’s right, asking, suggesting, maybe even demanding sometimes for us to be more, you know, the way they need us to be, um, not only does it, right, activate all of that old conditioning and this idea that I’m not worthy exactly as I am, that I think is at the core for many of us driving many of our habits and patterns around that.
I actually don’t think it works because I think oftentimes what the person is even requesting in terms of the shift or change is so grounded in their definition of love and connection from childhood that now we’ve created a scenario where very sadly both of the parties are left. Unfulfilled or not feeling truly seen.
One, because they’re actively trying to be different and the other, because even in the way this person, person may be as successfully, [00:20:00] right? Being different, it’s not necessarily landing. Um, because what I hope, again, another takeaway is a, a more true definition of what love and relationships are, which is the space to express ourselves.
Um, whatever that is, our thoughts, our feelings, our perspectives, our emotions, and the safety and the security to really gain the value that we all intrinsically need in terms of the support, the support of a nervous system in those moments of dysregulation, of overwhelm. The collaboration of, you know, individuals creating or imagining a life and a future together, however big that group is, is of course absolutely extends beyond, um, our romantic partnerships, in my opinion, into our communities where we can have space for difference and difference ideas, opinions, emotions, wants, and needs, and still be joined together, um, as the group in which that we are.
Scott: Yeah. Carl [00:21:00] Rogers talked about unconditional positive regard. Um, it seems so. more to this notion of, um, Oh, we’re giving someone the space to express themselves as they truly are. And then giving love is allowing someone else to express and feel safe. So it’s, it’s a two way street. Um, I mean, it’s beautiful when both people are doing it to each other, that’s, that’s called a nice relationship.
Sign me up, sign me up for that. Where can I find that? But email me. If you want to give me that kind of relationship, no, um, I’m a little cheeky, but, um, the idea of, um, I mean, your book really puts a lot of things, um, uh, I’m sorry about metaphors almost on their head, that’s one of my learning disabilities is metaphors.
Your book spins a lot of things on their head. It doesn’t even make sense, but okay, but um, one thing it does is the idea of trauma bonds. You know, you see a lot, um, of discussion [00:22:00] about how trauma bonds are bad, right? Like you’ll see all over Instagram, like don’t ever go in a relationship if it’s formed with trauma bonds.
But your book actually has a little more nuance there and you say there can actually be power to trauma bonds. It can actually be something that it can be beneficial to a relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Nicole: I think first, what I have at least, my definition of trauma bonds is, uh, A much more kind of expansive one that includes all of the, again, often learned, habitual ways, um, that we’ve learned and been modeled and continue to repeat to relate to ourselves as well as to relate So, I think when we expand that definition beyond a particular type of dysfunctional habit and pattern to all of the different ways that we’ve learned to water ourselves down, censor ourself, overstep, once in needs, become merged with other people or kind of whatever version it is.
I think then we see [00:23:00] how wide that net is and the large majority of us, when you were actually making your cheeky joke about emailing, I was making a joke in my head of like, oh, I’d love to, I’d love to get that email too, because I’ve yet to meet an adult who truly had. The safety and the security that they need it physically and emotionally in their childhood.
I have met many adults who have been able to become aware and I think this is where the power comes in of what our trauma bond patterning is or what our habitual relationship with ourself being the first relationship that we’re all in inevitably until the day we die and then how we relate or have learned to adapt and modify.
Um, I, you know, we can shift and that’s very much the experience that I have had. Um, the relationship I’m in, my longest one has been now upwards of 10 years we just reached. And when we began, there was a lot, we were not, I was, didn’t even have this information. Um, I was still finishing up my PhD. I [00:24:00] thought I was going to be very traditional psychologist.
I was not speaking in any of this way and I had yet to even go through what I, what as I was describing earlier, that kind of dark night, where I was just feeling disconnected, unfulfilled. So, saying that to say, we had a lot of, my partner Lolly, that is a lot of dysfunctional habits and patterns that I would conceptualize as a trauma bond and we can, however, I think when we become aware of the role we’re playing, breaking, I think, a pattern that a lot of us have that I know I had of.
Pointing, right, externalizing the blame. You’re the problem. Oh, I’m just picking the wrong person and really looking at the role Or the wrong
Scott: gender. Sounds like maybe
Nicole: in your case. In the beginning, right, I had a little bit of, that’s how I understood away. My first boyfriend telling me I was emotionally unavailable.
Because, I know! Several years later, I discovered that I was attracted to him. So, oh that’s. That, that settles that problem,
Scott: but I was going to say that there’s got to be connected. Like now you’re with a, with a woman, does, does Lolly feel like you’re more emotionally [00:25:00] available? Um,
Nicole: no. In the beginning I didn’t.
I carried, interestingly, I thought it would, um, um, Lolly is not my first female partner. I had several before her and I carry that same patterning in with the same complaint. Inevitably, sometimes, you know, somewhere down the line of after the newness of the relationship wore off, begun to complain, we’re just not emotionally connected.
I’m not sure. You know, what’s here and the relationship would drift and end naturally or I would agitate it so much with these complaints that the relationship would implode or explode and then onwards I would go to. Find someone else who is a bit more emotionally connected until I understood again the deep patterning that so many of us are driven by, myself included.
I began to observe the role that I was playing, um, really simply in terms of my emotions. I was so disconnected from my body, from my emotions, so overwhelmed like I was sharing that shy, that shy girl turned into just a dissociated adult. Who got very good at going through the motions of life, checking all the [00:26:00] boxes of achievement, thinking that I was going to feel some kind of way, thinking I was looking for connection and reality.
I was. A million miles away, um, overstepping my physical limits, not connected to my emotions at all. So, yeah, I use that as, again, you’re the problem, um, it’s not me until I really saw, and again, that’s where I think the power of a trauma bond can come in is when we notice because I do get asked then often of, well, what if I’m in?
What if I do know? That in my current relationship, you know, whatever loved one it is, romantic partner, friendships, they can absolutely be trauma bonded, family relationships, even our professional relationships can be, see these dysfunctional habits and patterns and, you know, I’ll get asked, can, do we have to leave?
What happens next? And empowerment happens, in my opinion, when we become conscious. of the role we’re playing. So for me, that meant become conscious of how disconnected I was, beginning my own journey of not only creating the safety and security [00:27:00] in my own physical and emotional body to be present to my emotions, but learning how then to offer myself.
sharing my emotions, asking for support, learning how to vulnerably receive the support that I was not familiar with receiving from my early childhood, um, then I think we can actually begin to embody a more secure relationship, which I think is possible, though I too, if you ever get an email from that one unicorn that has, that came from the secureness in their childhood, I would love to interview them.
Scott: Deal. Deal. If I get that, I will send them your way as well. You know, I. Um, I wasn’t going to ask this in my next question, but just listening to your own personal story and your journey, um, I’m, I’m, I’m just in awe of your openness to change. Um, it looks like to me, like you let go of a lot of your own ego story.
Is that right? Is that, uh, would you just, would you say that’s right? Cause you know, this idea of empowerment consciousness is so powerful that you just mentioned this, um, and you talk about it [00:28:00] in your book. It’s one that, yeah. Is, uh, near and dear to my own heart and my own research and writing is how can we, um, I view the kind of opposite end of the empowerment consciousness of victim mentality.
And I don’t know how, if, how you view it, that, but that’s how I see it. Um, and I feel like our society is so ensconced in a victim mentality right now. Um, and, and not knowing that, but we were rewarded, we’d reward it. Uh, people can get attention for it. You can get like, it’s, you can get, it’s, it can be nice to just stay there your whole life.
Um, how, how can we move people more into this empowerment consciousness? And I, and I did want to acknowledge your own, what you just said and say, you know, kudos to you for, for really wanting to, wanting to do that work. Cause it takes work, right? You can’t just like the victim mentality doesn’t, doesn’t believe in hard work.
It’s like, forget it. It’s not worth it, but you didn’t take that tact. You said. You know what, this might not be an easy journey, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna try my best.
Nicole: I think in terms of the way I [00:29:00] conceptualize and think about the victim consciousness, um, is it’s really understandable. When we’re living on that kind of blind subconscious autopilot, right, where life truly feels like it’s happening to us, we have no control, right?
The thing happens, I feel the way, I’m overwhelmed by the feeling, I do the habitual thing I always do, even though I told myself I’m not gonna do it, I have friends telling me. to stop doing it or to do something that will be more beneficial in that moment, um, in that state of blind autopilot, I think it’s really natural to miss.
All of the opportunity that we have to empower ourself to become aware of what’s in that subconscious mind of ours to begin to right shape and shift. Um, not only the way we’re physiologically reacting, the way we’re thinking about it and giving us the moment to change. And so I wanna normalize, and that’s again, just the way I conceptually understand it, having actually come from a family who very much.
taught, modeled, and who saw in myself. That mode of [00:30:00] consciousness, especially around the capabilities, or for more it was me, the limitations of my physical body. Uh, coming from, from a caregiver, my mom in particular, who suffered with chronic pain the entirety of my life. Um, she was 42 and she had me. And from that moment on, she was, you know, suffering with chronic pain, taking, you know, heavy medication for chronic pain for the entirety of my life, had other chronic health issues in terms of heart and heart surgeries.
My older sister, who was 15 years older than me, I was unplanned, um, third child, she also had a lot of chronic health issues herself, at least in her early childhood. So I had a lot of ingrained belief in terms of I was literally just waiting for myself. And what physical ailment, disease, diagnosis, in addition to the lifelong anxiety that I thought I would just be the rest of my life, um, saw very similar anxiety in, in my family, in my mom and my sister in [00:31:00] particular, so had no reason to think that There would be any possibility to feel differently, again, was awaiting limitation in my body, my body to express disease as opposed to express wellness.
So the work began for me, um, with being actually in quite resistance to the possibility that I could be different. I saw in the running dialogue in my mind, right, convincing me that. I would read powerful stories of people using their bodies to create transformation and change, their minds to create transformation and change, and I would close the book, say good for you, and continue to embody the beliefs that that’s not the journey for me.
Um, until of course I became really conscious of all of the ways that I was limiting myself, all of the ways that I was reacting on blind, blind autopilot, not having the possibility to make new choices, which and blonde autopilot, [00:32:00] um, and in all seriousness, I was that, that person, um, who on the daily when I decided and learned about.
I’m going to be talking about the power of the body and nutrition and the importance of sleep and for me of movement and stretching out my very now tight and constricted muscles after three decades and of nervous system regulation, understanding that I had none. I was so overwhelmed all of the time. I would be lying if I said it wasn’t.
kicking and screaming each and every day, right, where I would set my alarm a little earlier and I would keep that one small commitment to move my body for five minutes or do five deep belly breaths for, you know, however many seconds that takes. I had that all of the reasons why not. Though, the shift that happened very gradually over time, Was as I became more conscious to all of those limiting beliefs all of that reactivity and as I remained committed Even when I didn’t want to even when right I was Continuing to convince myself it wasn’t working [00:33:00] so slowly I was also empowering myself at that same time.
I was showing up in choice, which I think is where that true shift happens, where yes, life will continue to happen around us. We’re going to feel some kind of way. We might even instinctually be compelled to react in a particular way. But the shift that I was seeing was built for me, and I think it, for many of us, is outside of those moments of just explosive reactivity or blind habitual.
It was built for me and all of the moments throughout my day prior to that where I began to tend to and care for my body, become more conscious to what was happening in it so that over time that did then translate to, okay, I can be more present with my upset. I can be more attentive to my habitual reactions and compulsions and at the same time, I now have a bit of space to make a new and different choice.
Scott: Yeah. Well, I love it. Um, do [00:34:00] you ever get any criticism from anyone who says, Oh, you don’t pay enough attention to systemic, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, um, racism, all the things, all the isms. Do you ever get anyone, does anyone ever criticize you about that?
Nicole: Um, I have heard that, though I’m often surprised when I do, because a lot of my work and even this idea of what our habitual reactions are.
Um, I really grounded in, for many of us, our epigenetic lineage, which is impacted by not only the individuals that came before us, but by their social, political, economic, and the context, um, in which that they were born. So when I hear that, which again, I do get, I think it’s a misinterpretation of, I think a much more kind of surface idea or definition of.
The social structures that are 100 absolutely percent in place now. Um, I see myself though, always and often talking about it, um, in the [00:35:00] context of the trauma that has been passed through many of us in our lineages that are 100%. I mean, anytime I’m talking even again, holistically, it’s. our individual body’s interaction with the context and the world and the environment around us and what impact that that has.
Um, so again, for me, it’s just like a, um, uh, a missing of, I think what is the larger scope of we are in relationship, like I said earlier, not only with ourself, but with the environment and the context and the world around us, um, as we’re all of our ancestors and all of that imprint. is, we now know scientifically, right, passed on epigenetically with how we learn how to deal with and tolerate stress, which is why I’m still waiting for the unicorn that doesn’t have some of that inability, um, in them, bred into them even, um, because of the socio political economic context in which all of most of our ancestors have been a part of.[00:36:00]
Scott: Yeah, I see a lot of your work is really helping to get people towards trauma healing and not getting, uh, keeping them stuck. Uh, there, there’s a, uh, tweet you wrote in this year. You said, quote, culture doesn’t celebrate trauma healing because it means we would wake up. It means we would no longer sleepwalk through life, accepting dysfunction as square quotes normal.
Love that tweet. In fact, I’m including that in a new book. I’m working on your tweet. I loved it so much. Um, can you kind of talk a little about that and, um, do you see at all, um, uh, cause I see trauma as big business these days, you know, and I think even just keeping people in a sort of victim mentality, uh, identity, uh, trauma identity, you know, um, as though reducing the opposite of holistic, you know, like reducing an entire person to their past, um, is actually big business in a lot of ways these days.
But I was wondering, get some of your thoughts on this.
Nicole: Well, I’m honored. Thank you for using that quote. I’m so glad that you’re resonating with it, Scott. I think another kind of big [00:37:00] aspect of society, um, and again, I, I very much, one of my, you know, dysfunctional cycles of achievement was even grounded in the celebration of certain ways of being, of living that society, I think now completely embraces, if not, like I was saying, celebrates outwardly, that is really unnatural.
Um, to our human physiology. I mean, even from growing up as, you know, you and I from Philadelphia growing up in a city, um, living so, I mean, I lived on a major street. I would go to sleep hearing sirens at night and that was like normal. to me to hear what to our actual human body is quite dysregulating. A loud blaring siren that we know means something, you know, catastrophic has likely happened is, is not one’s nighttime lullaby.
But yet for me, it was, um, I lived on top of my neighbors. I was, you know, shared a wall. I could absolutely hear right from what was going on in the [00:38:00] neighbor’s house. I lived in New York City for a decade. Piled on top of, you know, like near in someone else’s apartment and with a bar down below me and hearing all of that and was that Lower East Side.
Lower East Side. It absolutely was. I was on Avenue B. Um, I was the second floor. I would smell the cigarette smoke coming in my window. I know
Scott: exactly where you were picturing
Nicole: it. Gosh. Yeah. And again, there was a part of me that became so familiar with that. It was a running joke up until my thirties that I would live and die in the city.
And now the fact that I’m sitting here in Scottsdale, Arizona, which is a little bit of a city, but very much not like the city I was envisioning that I was always going to be in was just so familiar with that type of, of living. And then outside of that, right, the culture. hustling, working. I mean, in my opinion, we’re at our core, we’re creative beings.
We’re on a cycle of, of seasons, right? There’s cycles of creation, just like, you know, when we [00:39:00] plant, we plant things and they grow and then they die. And then we sow, right? It’s not just nine to five, sometimes even earlier, sometimes even later, sometimes 70 hours a week. where we’re made to just push past our physical, emotional, and creative limits to do many of the jobs that many of us have to do to support the families living, again, with increasing cost of living and, again, just the unnaturalness of Um, again, the celebration I think that many of us get when we’re doing it all, when we’re super parent or, you know, the prestigious partner at our firm, because we never say no to, to taking time or to, to overtime and we never take time off.
Um, I think it has set up a normalization of a lot that then gets kind of a Band Aid type prescription when people naturally have. the symptoms of these unnatural environments, whether it’s the physical exhaustion while we just drink [00:40:00] more coffee or take stimulants to wake us up, or the emotional symptoms of this disconnection from our creative being.
Um, and then we go down all of the pathways of Putting the band aids on whether it’s the physical manifestation of disease or the emotional Manifestation of disease oftentimes at the same time being celebrated and just trying to put the band aid on To continue to get us back in that productivity cycle and continuing to do or play the role that we’re playing So I think a lot about Human and where we came from and our ancestry, you know, our lineage and what life looked like at one time.
And then I look outside and, you know, it’s not surprising to me that so many of us are feeling as disconnected. So, um, so is it just how we apply it? Yeah, I mean, it’s, you don’t
Scott: have to be a trained psychologist to do that. I mean, I did a PhD in psychology but that’s not really my thing. I’m not a professional, you know, I just, you know, I’ve done a lot of deep, deep research and medical psychiatry and [00:41:00] I think, you know, I’ve done all sorts of research and I always find some interesting things, you know, that I can learn from.
So, and that’s what I would say, I mean, I don’t, I don’t want
Nicole: to be a psychologist. Um, um, searching outside whether it’s, well, what environment do I go to? I get asked a lot, right? I want an authentic relationship. What do I do? Where do I go to meet the person, right? What’s the dating app or is it in person, right?
Does that even still exist? What do I say? Right? How do I kind of find them outside? And in my opinion at least, and I think the, the themes throughout this book really reflect this opinion, which is that. It’s less about going to the right place, saying the right thing, and it’s more about the inward journey of being in your own authentic self expression, unlearning all of the conditioning as we’ve been talking about, creating the safety and the security to be curious about, right, who you are in terms of outside [00:42:00] of the role maybe that you’ve learned to play.
They, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, Being ourselves. And then as we go about life in general, right, being ourselves, then we open ourselves up to, you know, attract down to an energetic level these deeper, more authentic relationships. But that’s not to say I do want to go back to one aspect of your question and it can be very lonely.
along the way, as we get clear that maybe many of the relationships, as I know was the case for me that kept me very active in terms of my social life, very disconnected from all of the feelings underneath for decades of my life. As I got really clear that they, or I wanted to start making choices that weren’t in alignment with my actual wants and needs, the by product of that was Separating, losing, ending, some of those relationships that I [00:43:00] thought I would keep for a lifetime.
Um, as I, you know, turned inward and, and got clearer and just spent time away, it, and mourned a lot of the identity that I was losing personally, professionally, um, again, as I want it. desperately to find people then that I could be emotionally or more authentically, I should say connect it with. Um, there was a period of time, which was actually the biggest inspiration for me to even create the Instagram account back several years ago now when I first put up the online shingle, if you will.
As a holistic psychologist, it was really born out of not only a desire to Share this new information that was so transformative in my own life and was transformative with the clients that I was working with more holistically at that time. It was also to find. A group of people to, to, to relieve, uh, the deep loneliness that I absolutely know comes from, um, a lot of our journeys along the way.[00:44:00]
Yeah.
Scott: I love that. Well, I, I tell me a little about the self healer circle, which is, um, initiative that’s related to this. Yeah,
Nicole: born out of actually, so several years into being online, sharing more publicly on the Instagram account, I started to get, at the same time, um, I was doing one on one individual client work, coaching, if you will, holistically.
And um, I was really kind of learning and leaning into the importance and power of relationships near every, Uh, individual client I was working with was either struggling in their relationship, feeling lonely, right, wanting that group, um, of people. So I was learning and hearing about the importance of community from them, doing, you know, kind of some research into how incredibly important communities are and can be.
And I started to hear from a lot of people on the public account. Um, that they were interested in a [00:45:00] community. Hey, do you have anything that’s like not because by this point, you know The follower count was growing so people would know people Oh my partner’s in this and I don’t want them to see what i’m commenting or my my mom or my dad So directly people were starting to ask.
Um, is there somewhere else that we can go to be in community? that’s not on this very public social media platform. So, for me, it was just an alignment of all of these messages that I was getting from all of these different places. So, I started to explore, Oh, I wonder what a kind of community could look like.
Um, can, can I create something where, you know, every month, of course it’s informationally driven, where we roll out what we call a course. So we have a new topic. Um, this particular month we’re talking about parasympathetic practices, how to relax our body. Right, so there’s information given in terms of parasympathetic nervous system, right?
Why it’s important in some practices. Um, we have workshops that happen throughout the [00:46:00]month. I think now we have upwards of almost one a week where either I’m giving the presentation or because I think it’s so important to expose, um, just like I learned many different types of thought. We have outside presenters come in.
Um, we just had a yin yoga workshop as one of the workshops given this month. So people in different areas coming in, gifting us with their time and sharing kind of their mode of genius or their paradigm, if you will. Um, and then of course there’s the community aspect we’ve now built, um, what very much looks like our own social media platform, though it isn’t, it’s on our private server where members have the opportunity to put up, um, you know, their own profile populated however they want with pictures of themselves with.
pseudonyms if they don’t feel comfortable and that’s their opportunity. In addition to those live events where there’s, you know, chats and members show up early and have conversations while the workshop is happening, they have an opportunity to connect and begin to explore being themselves in a, in a new [00:47:00] way.
Um, and we’re going to talk a little bit about, um, how to get involved in the privacy of this platform and to connect, um, with others by doing it. So, so much actually today, um, we’re recording this on November 1st, which is its anniversary. Um, three years ago today, it was birthed, um, as our first enrollment cycle.
So we are three years going strong. We actually still have many members that have joined from three years ago that are members to this day. that are still a part of the self healer circle. So it’s truly a living, breathing embodiment of, of all of the work in my opinion of, of all of the concepts that you’ll, you’ll read about and how to be the love you seek, um, which is the healing power of relationships, the importance of learning, safety and security to be oneself to find, um, we’ve, funny enough, we’ve had actually people who’ve met, um, partners, uh, one of which is now a married couple that met three years ago, um, in the circle themselves.
So yes, while it’s not a dating app in any sense of the word, it is just a really cool place where people are [00:48:00] experimenting with who they really are exploring. I should say first with who they are experimenting with being who they are. And are creating really, um, transformation, incredible transformation, not only for themselves individually, but for their relationships outside of the circle.
Sounds
Scott: like an amazing group of growth seekers. Uh, how many members did you say? Did you say 3 million?
Nicole: Um, it was three years old. I think we have around 20, 000 and counting a bit. Okay. That’s good. I think we have, yeah, I think we’re representing now 180 countries. Uh, worldwide, we have a member’s map where members can drop in their, you know, general geographic location.
And I sometimes just blow the map up and get chills looking at all of the different places that people are, are joined from or tuning in from, and it’s, it’s so, it’s so hopeful for me, uh, not only because it’s an actual manifestation of an idea, you know, that is now in full creation. It, for me, is just symbolic of humanity, humanity’s desire [00:49:00] to, Um, and I think it’s really important that we have these conversations to create these shifts and again, an embodiment of the incredible power that we can create electromagnetically, even right down to our heart space of being more and living more in attunement.
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. The more and more I live, I realized just how much energy matters above everything else. Like, you know, You, you kind of have this notion that like attractiveness matter, you know, like physical, you know, objective attractiveness matters. And then you start to realize so much of it that you’re actually attracting is, is your energy.
It’s just, it’s, it’s mind blowing once you really tap into that truth. Sorry, that might’ve been a little bit of a diversion, but it’s just something I’ve, I’ve noticed too. No,
Nicole: I’m agreeing. I’m actually, I was going to show you, I have, uh, the chakras tattooed. Most of my tattoos have an individual significance and a reminder for myself.
And I gotten this one several years ago and I, I too began to learn and embody the importance of energy. So this is [00:50:00] my kind of daily personal reminder that, you know, I am energy to tend to my energy first and foremost, before I can even. Um, so I’m going to just show up to support, to tend, or to serve another.
It’s really begins in my own kind of alignment and my own connection to myself. Um, so every time I see this, which I do think is also a very beautifully done tattoo, I’m like, right, that’s my daily reminder. Cause again, all of my old habits are at the ready of putting the world before me now that I have, you know, an endless opportunity for which I’m so grateful for to write books, to have a to do list, to have podcast engagements.
Um, I’m only as aligned and in flow as what I’ve probably done the several nights before the several days before how I’ve.
the ready of well, go jump in your email. Oh, you have to do this thing. Oh, you have an early start today. And I stay grounded in that empowerment space of consciousness to remind myself that to do all those things, the [00:51:00] capacity that I would like to be present to do all of those things. It begins with the choice to do me first, to have, you know, an hour for myself to take care of my physical body, to be in my own presence, um, so that I can then be more fully present later in that day.
Scott: Um, yeah, for, for sure. I think your epilogue kind of has a really nice example of, um, this, this woman named Jenna who dropped in and connected with her own heart’s truth. Do you, uh, feel comfortable sharing that? Obviously you do. You wrote in your book, uh, the story. Can you tell our audience a little bit about it and how it.
And so, I think I’m going to have to do a little bit
Nicole: more research on that. But I will, I will. Likewise. Kind of such an intuitive conclusion because in my opinion, it really illustrates us shifting our awareness to even, you know, allow Jenna to speak what it was that was happening, allowing myself and my partner Lolly to to receive it and to tune to the alignment that that was in [00:52:00] our own truth was just so symbolic and embodied all of it.
The concepts throughout so Jenna is someone that interestingly enough I connected to in the early days of the Instagram account I came to know her handle as was the case. I think several people on the account now I’m like familiar with because they’ve just been around and I’m used to you know their comments and we’ve developed that type of relationship and she absolutely was one of them and So when we opened up the circle, uh, several years after that account went live and we needed help, um, near immediately we crashed the server.
We had some technological issues, Lolly and I were trying to navigate all of the emails on our own and it was very clear that we need it more than the two of us and she seemingly having like felt the ping of need was in the inbox and I saw and at this point the community was quite large. I saw. We saw her DM right away, um, she was affirming that she not only saw and kind of saw the vision for what it was that we were kind of doing with [00:53:00] the circle, she herself was on her own journey and very much wanted to be a part of creating and, you know, kind of running the community.
So she joined in the context of business, for lack of a better word, in the beginning, though, very aligned business and A year or two after Lolly and I made our migration west for the sunshine and the lifestyle that, you know, was a possible, uh, out west as opposed to where we were living in Philly at the time.
And Jenna was living in very near proximity. So now we started to log a lot of in person activities. time together, more personal time together, where we would quickly be spending birthdays and celebrations, you know, around the business would be happening together. And so flash forward in time, um, there came a bit of a rocky period where there was a lot of tension and a lot of stress around seemingly, you know, surface type.
you know, irritations around, you know, someone not, you know, saying the right thing in an email or, you know, little fights that we would have around something not [00:54:00] being picked up to the store from the store that the other person desired. And we started to have conversations from a business perspective of, well, what?
So, what’s going on here? Like we’re seemingly having a difficult time communicating and we’re all very committed. We had now a team that was working with us in addition to the three of us. We’re committed to this, this, this work. Um, this is all of our passion. So what is it that’s going on? And one day Jenna, um, came and sat Lolly and I both down separately.
and shared that she had done her own kind of self exploration and was trying to like explore what her role in very much in alignment with the work that we were all doing individually in all this conflict was, and she was coming to the realization that she was having feelings, romantic feelings for her.
Both of us, um, and wasn’t sure herself what to make or, or, or do with them, um, understanding that we were at that time, a married committed monogamous seeming couple, not have any awareness and no anticipation of how we would even receive that [00:55:00] though, having been someone who’s been very heart led on her own journey, um, prior to even meeting us, knew for herself that she needed to.
Um, and it asked, you know, both Lolly and I to take time to just let it settle, sit in and obviously explore how, how we felt, um, though affirm that she remained committed to the work itself, even if that meant we would have to create some boundaries, some separation so that we could navigate if we weren’t in.
reciprocating those feelings. And Lali And I now having evolved our relationship from very much trauma, bond dysfunctional pattern, being very committed both to our own individual journeys and wanting our own fulfillment, actualization and happiness and wanting that for the other. We had a conversation together and we’re both very quickly able to identify that That was part of what was going on for us too, um, both she and I, Lolly and I were [00:56:00] having, you know, feelings of attraction, curiosity.
Oh, here’s a person who seemingly fitting in to our life. Like this is interesting. How could this look? And again, not necessarily speaking it. And so me being committed to wanting to explore it myself, me wanting her to explore it. Um, we made the decision to see, um, never any 3 of us having had models for, uh, I mean, you know, I, I heard of the concept of open relationship, polyamorous before though, we were really looking to evolve into 3 people.
In a, in a committed relationship. So we, I think, did what many of us did. We went online for a little bit. We went to search and see, is there any examples of, of this? Is anyone doing this? What’s this even called? Um, we saw very limited, uh, models or, or examples at that time, though we were all, again, affirmed and secure enough on our journey that we were curious and we were going to see, how we could look and what it would be like.
And very successful, we entered into that type of [00:57:00] relationship, and then it got to the point where publicly, and even, you know, putting it in my book, the fact that it is part of my epilogue now. Um, we were getting to the point where Jen and I were co hosting a podcast at that time. We run the circle together, which involves an event that we co host once a month.
And we were both starting to feel like we were censoring a bit, um, of ourselves, right? Having to be like, Oh, wait, who, who was that? Argument with I can’t say right and kind of limiting certain details that we were sharing and it was starting to impact our own ability to just freely and authentically, which is so much a foundational part of our journeys.
And that of which we teach. In addition to the fact that I was starting to become, you know, much more publicly known. So moments where I would be out in public and people will come up and I always celebrate when you see me on public, Come say hi, I love saying hi to everyone. Um, but I was starting to have a concern of not being, you know, transparent as to what was happening and how I would have to begin to monitor myself, not only in my presentations but [00:58:00] in my.
So we made the decision to publicly share on instagram, and then as I was writing the book, while of course the book is by no means a book about opening your relationships, I do think it’s so much a part of speaking, whatever it is that you know is on listeners heart, beyond attraction to someone else.
interest in, you know, opening or expanding a relationship as we did. I think there’s so many things that we don’t say, um, out of fear, uh, you know, of what the person will think out of what we think about ourselves because of what it is that is on our heart that I do think can be a, a big, a big, um, helpful component.
And again, it’s so much of, of the work in those pages, which is being connected to the heart, the power. that it affords you. I think a lot of the conflict and disconnection that happens when we’re not.
Uh, so we’re going to [00:59:00] have a 2 minute break after which we’ll have a Q A, and
Scott: then we’ll have a Q A. We’re going to do a conversation. Ignore that. Ignore that. But you’re like, you’re like, huh, maybe, maybe there’s something here. So I think that it also takes just a great openness. I would imagine you would score high in the big five openness to experience personality trait.
Nicole: I’ve learned to see that the messages and to, to listen. Um, I think that’s a two part, synchronicity of. Someone arriving, something arriving, right? That it even draws your attention in a world of endless distraction. And then there’s a step of being like, huh, is there [01:00:00] something in it for me? And then there’s of course the step of, if it is, Expressing it to the world.
And what that then means, I kind of have a running joke that my family have had, has had to now go through too coming outs of sorts with me back when I was 19 or something. And I, you know, told them that I was a lesbian and gonna be dating women. And now when I’m like, oh, and now I have this new relationship for you.
And so it’s been a very interesting, uh, ride and they’ve been very supportive. Um, from the beginning of, of that piece of information. They did struggle with the gayness one in the beginning for a bit. My mom in particular. Um, though it is, it’s a lot that, you know, is involved with listening, heeding, and acting in accordance oftentimes with what is on our heart.
So thank you for that.
Scott: Yeah, you’re welcome. It’s, well, it sounds like you just have an abundance of love in your life right now. As a parent, I would. Receive it in that way. Like, I’m doubling the love now, mom. And she’s like, okay, okay, that sounds beautiful. I want that for my children. I want them to have as much love as [01:01:00] possible in their lives.
Um, I want to end with this quote of yours. Um, love it. It says, within your heart, is the power to change your relationships as well as the environment around you. It’s the love that lives inside each of us that is the true source of all healing. Uh, thank you so much, Dr. Nicole, for coming on my podcast today and, uh, gracing us with your love.
Nicole: Oh, of course. This has been a true honor. I love this conversation. Thank you, Scott for having me. Thank you all for listening. Um, I really, like I said, I, I believe in us as humans. I believe in the power of our hearts and I’m so ever hopeful as I continue to see us opening our attention and awareness to that, that deep place of, I do think inner knowing.
Thank you.